25 man vs. 10 man raiding (again)

Gray at Gray Matter has posted yet another scathing post about the lockout changes coming with Cata here. Again, it is quite the debate.

Every time I start reading these kinds of posts I get frustrated all over again.

I understand the fear that 25 man raiders have. I get that removing some of the gear carrot may make it so the donkey doesn’t want to budge into 25 man raiding. The argument that if we really wanted to raid 10 mans, then we would, can go the opposite way. If you really want to raid 25 mans then you can, regardless of gear drops, just like us. The change is for equality in gear drops, can you imagine the outrage if we were suggesting lesser item level gear for 25 mans? Well, that’s how it feels to 10 mans raiders right now.

Don’t start about 25 mans are harder to organize so we need better drops otherwise no one will want to do them. BS! If that was the case no one would have done 10 mans at all. Why bother when you can get better in 25s? Yet so many of the guilds I’ve witnessed do both.

Here is where things got difficult. With 4 lockouts available, 10N, 25N, 10H and 25H, that is way too much raiding the same dungeon, even for “hardcore” raiders. But you had to do all of them, else fall behind in emblem farming. This is the reason for the lockout separation and I think it’s a good thing.

I think the gear equality is a good thing too, but I would think so, since I prefer 10 mans. I can see the 25 man side of it. I can see the concern. I’m not sure it requires quite as much outrage as it’s being given.

I have my concerns about the changing a 25 lockout into three 10 mans thing. It seems far too complex to keep track of. This is why I’m not a raid leader. Time will tell how this plays out.

My biggest concern is the way the changes are polarizing the community. I’ve seen primarily 25 man raiders fling scathing attacks at 10 man raiders and vice versa.  There has consistently been attacks on 10 man raiders throughout Wrath, and it is beyond frustrating. The allegation that 10 man raiding is somehow subpar to 25 man raiding, and if you don’t raid 25 mans you must be a scrub is infuriating.

At the end of the day, my hope is that Blizzard sticks with 10 man raids as an option. Personally, I don’t really care if gear is equal or not. I just want to find a 10 man raiding guild. So far I have had no luck with this. Every 10 man raiding guild I have joined in Wrath quickly turned into a 25 man guild because of the gear disparity. If gear equality means I have a chance to find a decent guild, then by all means, I am for it.

My concern is that the polarization almost makes me feel that the people who want 25 man raiding seem to want 10 man raiding to just go away. I don’t know if this is really the intent, but that’s how it feels. Consistently hearing that 10 mans are irrelevant, do not deserve equal gear with 25 mans, so much easier to organize, etc. makes me feel that WoW would be a better place without 10 mans at all.

Except I love 10 mans. I do not love 25 mans. I’ll be the first to admit I wouldn’t have raided in Vanilla just because I can’t even handle dealing with 24 other people. Dealing with 39 others seems like torture. Maybe that makes me a casual scrub not fit for “real raiding.”

Get rid of 10 mans and what is next? Get rid of 5 mans? Only casuals do 5 mans. If you can’t raid beginning tier dungeon content in quest Blues you fail at the game anyway. You don’t deserve to raid, Scrub.

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2 Responses to 25 man vs. 10 man raiding (again)

  1. Saga says:

    I don’t like the elitist approach of “25 mans are for ‘real’ players and 10 mans are for scrubs”. My guild was a 25 man guild but due to people leaving and the difficulty in recruiting able players we ended up going 10 man. As Wrath launched we had actually considered going 10 man from the start, but due to too many members it felt unfair.

    Now for Cataclysm we are definitely staying a 10 man guild. Not because it’s easier, but because it’s what we are comfortable playing – the people left from our core team fill up the base of a 10 man, so why would we want to recruit a bunch of strangers to fill another 15 spots?

    I think you can argue either way about 25 man and 10 man. Sure, 25 mans require more organisation in the sense of getting enough people online and working together, but I would say that 10 man is less forgiving when it comes to mistakes and tactics. In 25 man you have 24 other people making up for your mistakes etc. while in 10 man there’s only 9.

    To me it’s really just a matter of numbers. 25 man isn’t more difficult – it just has more people.

    Personally I really enjoy the close-knit feeling of a 10 man guild, and that’s how I want to continue.

  2. Exactly, Saga. That’s what I like about 10 mans too. I don’t want Blizz to do away with 25 mans, it just isn’t what I want to do. It’s frustrating to me when it feels as though the proponents of 25 man raiding seem to feel that 10 mans are threatening them. I’m not threatening anyone, I just want to do what I want to do, and that just happens to be 10 mans.

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